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ttatlanta

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Just received my Therion 166 today (and enjoying the heck out of it!)

Connected to Escribe, flipped through the tabs and found out that the default chemistry is LiPo. Known issue, so let's select the 18650 from the pulldown menu. Wait, what?!…

Screen Shot 2017-04-12 at 13.59.38.png 

giz_60

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Lithium Polymer setting for the Li-ion 18650 cells...

"Lithium-polymer batteries” are actually “Lithium-ion polymer” batteries
ttatlanta

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Quote:
Originally Posted by giz_60
Lithium Polymer setting for the Li-ion 18650 cells... "Lithium-polymer batteries” are actually “Lithium-ion polymer” batteries


Semantically you are correct, but… While both are lithium based, these are very different batteries in the real world. AFAIK there's no LiPo on the market in 18650 form factor. Most importantly in this case, LiPo and LiIon have a different charging dynamics.

Edit: maybe I've been mislead by this post, as it mentions "18650 LiIon" setting, but I'm reading the official Escribe manual and there's no mention of this option.
RedJester

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Reply with quote  #4 
Same here. Recently I've been learning how to set up my batteries in escribe and the how-to videos I've watched have described changing the battery type to Li-Ion 18650  (for my therion 166). I also do not have a 18650 option in the drop down menu on the mod tab, and this thread is the only other mention I've found about this. I feel like I'm missing something obvious.
no18650.jpg 

retird

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttatlanta


Edit: maybe I've been mislead by this post, as it mentions "18650 LiIon" setting, but I'm reading the official Escribe manual and there's no mention of this option.


The post you mention references the DNA75.  The DNA75 and DNA60 have a choice to select "18650 Li-ion".  Both devices are single battery configured.

The datasheet from the DNA60 says:  "The DNA 60 runs from a single lithium polymer or lithium ion battery, and features battery monitoring."

The datasheet from the DNA75 says: "The DNA 75 runs from a single lithium polymer or lithium ion battery, and features battery monitoring and integrated 1A charger."

From Evolv's description of the DNA200 and 250 shown on the web site it says:
"The DNA 250 runs from a 2 or 3 cell lithium polymer battery, and features cell-by-cell battery monitoring and integrated balance charger."

"The DNA 20 runs from a 2 or 3 cell lithium polymer battery, and features cell-by-cell battery monitoring and integrated balance charger."

From the Datasheets:

The datasheet for the DNA200 says: "The DNA 200 runs from a 3 cell lithium polymer battery, and features cell by-cell battery monitoring and integrated 1A balance charger."

The datasheet for the DNA250 says: "The DNA 250 runs from a 3 cell lithium polymer battery, and features cell by-cell battery monitoring and integrated 2A balance charger."

The DNA 166 and 133 came about as folks wanted to have a 2 cell configuration thus the 250 and 200 can be configured that way by the mod makers.

As far as I recall there has never been an EScribe option of "18650 Li-Ion" available for the DNA200 or 250 board.




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giz_60

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttatlanta


Semantically you are correct, but… While both are lithium based, these are very different batteries in the real world. AFAIK there's no LiPo on the market in 18650 form factor. Most importantly in this case, LiPo and LiIon have a different charging dynamics.

Edit: maybe I've been mislead by this post, as it mentions "18650 LiIon" setting, but I'm reading the official Escribe manual and there's no mention of this option.




The following is copied & posted from the following post..https://www.reddit.com/r/Vaping/comments/3j1i6e/lipo_vs_liion_cell_18650/


There is so much confusion coming out now about the "safety" of these "LiPo" packs and explosions and blah blah blah 18650 blah blah. Here's the truth:

Real LiPo packs don't exist. Yup. All those "Lithium Polymer" batteries that are in everything aren't actually lithium polymer, they are just Lithium ion battery made into squishy packages.

Then why are they called LiPo?

A quote from wikipedia:

"The denomination "lithium polymer" has caused confusion among battery users. It may be interpreted in two ways. Originally, "lithium polymer" stood for a developing technology using a polymer electrolyte instead of the more common liquid electrolyte. The result is a "plastic" cell, which theoretically could be thin, flexible, and manufactured in different shapes, without risk of electrolyte leakage. These batteries are available[1] although the technology has not been fully developed and commercialized,[2][3][needs update] and research is ongoing.[4][5][6]

The second meaning appeared when some manufacturers started applying the "polymer" denomination to lithium-ion cells in pouch format. This is the most extended use nowadays, where "polymer" went from indicating a "polymer electrolyte" to mean a "polymer casing", that is, the soft, external pouch. While the design is usually flat, and lightweight, it is not a true polymer cell, as the electrolyte is still in liquid form, albeit it may be "plasticized" or "gelled" through a polymer additive.[7] These cells are sometimes known as "LiPo", however, from the technological point of view, they are the same as the ones marketed simply as "Li-ion", as the underlying electrochemistry is the same.[7]"

To sum that up it basically means that at one point we were trying to develop actual LiPo bateries, but kind of gave up. However, the idea of a squishy/flexible battery stuck with the name so people still call RC Li-ion batteries lipo.

What does this mean? It means that Lithium ion (aka 18650) chargers can charge RC lipo batteries and vice versa. It also means that the batteries are theoretically equally safe. I say theoretically because the metal casing of a 18650 style cell does offer more protection than the metallic plastic used in rc batteries, but as long as they are treated safely AKA no shorting, no overcharging (which is impossible with smart chargers) and proper balancing when used in series (which is what the DNA 200 does) you should never have a problem.













ttatlanta

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by retird
The post you mention references the DNA75.  The DNA75 and DNA60 have a choice to select "18650 Li-ion".  Both devices are single battery configured.

[…]

As far as I recall there has never been an EScribe option of "18650 Li-Ion" available for the DNA200 or 250 board.


You stated the obvious, then basically rephrased my question… that doesn't count as an answer. Yes, I think we've established by now that 18650 LiIon have disappeared from the menu options with DNA200&250, but why?! Why single 18650 had a dedicated option, yet 2 or more of them are treated as LiPo? Then again, if you insist that LiIon and LiPo should be treated the same, why not call the menu option "LiPo/LiIon"? Doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by giz_60
The following is copied & posted from the following post..https://www.reddit.com/r/Vaping/comments/3j1i6e/lipo_vs_liion_cell_18650/


A Reddit post with 3 upvotes is a very scientific source of information indeed. </sarc>

LiPo, LiIon and LiFePO4 have one thing in common: they all have a lithium anode, just like disposable lithium batteries do. Moreover, as you correctly stated above, the LiPo is a subclass of LiIon.

Here's Wikipedia's take on the difference:

Quote:
Lithium polymer cells have technologically evolved from lithium-ion and lithium-metal batteries. The primary difference is that instead of using a lithium-salt electrolyte (such as LiPF6) held in an organic solvent (such as EC/DMC/DEC), the battery uses a solid polymer electrolyte (SPE) such as poly(ethylene oxide) (PEO), poly(acrylonitrile) (PAN), poly(methyl methacrylate) (PMMA) or poly(vinylidene fluoride) (PVdF).


From the vaper's perspective, we should be comparing LiPo packs to 18650 LiIons. Physically (other than the form factor), LiPo packs don't have a PTC and CID protection, as they are not supposed to be [easily] removable from the device (unless you're an RC enthusiast, of course)). They rely on expertise of the mod designer to provide necessary fuses and sensors.

Now, back to the point that you've missed again. LiPo and LiIon are different chemistries, and in a perfect world they require different charging techniques (cell balancing is not the question here, please stay focused). Any scientific or hobby charger (here's an example) will have separate modes for LiPo and LiIon, and if you look at the charge graphs, they are indeed different.

Can you charge LiIon as a LiPo? Sure. But same applies to LiFePO4, so why bother with a separate menu item then? Just give us an option for manually entering a cutoff voltage while charging (3.6V with LiFe as opposed to 4.2V for LiPo/LiIon) and call it a day.

TL;DR: Even if Evolv decided to charge LiIon as a LiPo (makes sense, considering that they are somewhat compatible in this regard), the UI choice is just plain wrong and confusing. Adding a 18650 option to the pulldown menu would've taken 2 minutes at most – just copy&paste from the LiPo options if you insist.

giz_60

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttatlanta
A Reddit post with 3 upvotes is a very scientific source of information indeed. </sarc


Guess you missed that the quote was from Wikipedia as well...

At the end of the day, for the DNA 2xx devices, Lithium Polymer is the correct setting, in Escribe, for the Li-ion 18650 cells. You can always make a request to Evolv about changes/features in future updates to Escribe, but for now, it's what we got...



retird

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttatlanta


You stated the obvious, then basically rephrased my question… that doesn't count as an answer. Yes, I think we've established by now that 18650 LiIon have disappeared from the menu options with DNA200&250, but why?! Why single 18650 had a dedicated option, yet 2 or more of them are treated as LiPo? Then again, if you insist that LiIon and LiPo should be treated the same, why not call the menu option "LiPo/LiIon"? Doesn't make sense.


............



We've not established that 18650 LiIon have disappeared from the menu options with DNA200&250.

Why?

The 18650 LiIon option did not disappear from the 200's and 250's as it was never there to start with.  If the point you want to make is that you would like a LiIon option be added to the 200 and 250 boards via EScribe then you might drop a suggestion and state your reasoning using this link:

https://helpdesk.evolvapor.com/index.php?a=add&category=5

If you have a concern as to whether the DNA 200 and 250 safely charge batteries you could also add that to the suggestion form. Evolv folks are pretty good at replying back from their help desk.

As a side note:  Updating firmware and software prior to August 8, 2016 wasn't much of a thing but the FDA Deeming Regulations are now in effect and the process gets complicated and expensive. At least that is what I have read....

Overview of Deeming Regulations:

http://sfata.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/SFATADeemingReuglationsAnalysis.pdf

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ChunkyButt200

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Reply with quote  #10 
to add, the reason for the battery chemistry drop down menu is so the board knows at what voltage to stop charging at and the maximum hard cutoff point. there would be no real immediate reason to add Li-ion. both Li-ion and Lipo chemistry batts/cells require a constant current / constant voltage charging procedure, both usually have an end charge voltage of around 4.20v (4.20v is not required but is considered the  fully charged voltage). the difference between the two, in terms of "different charging methods" would be negligible. you're splitting hairs trying to differentiate between the two chemistries when it comes to how the DNA 200/250 charges. there would be no real benefit or drawback, that you would notice, to your cells if there was a specific Li-ion option.  you CAN choose between 4.10v and 4.20v for a cutoff voltage. i've been running and charging 18650's on my replaceable DNA 200/250 devices using the lipo option with no ill effects to my 18650 cells, some are over two years old. besides, what other board on the market offers as much or ANY battery settings customization as the DNA series?

like, @retird stated before and was only trying to help, ask in the suggestion thread or write an email expressing your concerns for a Li-ion option in EScribe for the DNA 200/250. 



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Latest versions of EScribe: DNA 200 • DNA 75  Common problems
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RedJester

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Reply with quote  #11 
Well I can't speak for OP, but thank you giz_60, retird, and chunkybutt200 for your replies. I am satisfied with your answers addressing my concern. Thanks!
ttatlanta

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Reply with quote  #12 
Yes, I think we've got this sorted out, thanks to admins. Please don't take me being caustic personally, it was directed towards Evolv's UI decisions regarding the "mod" tab… which I still find confusing, despite being quite a nerd myself.
retird

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Reply with quote  #13 
No problem.......[thumb]  We are here to try to help where we can....  The decision makers on DNA board design, device functions, software and firmware features and etc. are the employees (Engineers and Software guys) and the owners of Evolv. Over the years they have taken suggestions from the public, and beta testers, and they decide what they want to implement. Many features of the DNA were once just suggestions. Thus my suggestion of submitting your thoughts and concerns to Evolv's Help Desk.    We are not employees and we just volunteer our time, and limited knowledge, here in this forum. 

If you know of any comparable board with all the features of a DNA and related software (similar to EScribe) that gives more functionality, monitoring, analyzers, real time monitoring, customizable settings, and etc. please let me know.... I want to kick-the-tires on it....

Oh, and welcome to the forum.... (just noticed your registration date).. [comp]




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ttatlanta

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by retird
If you know of any comparable board with all the features of a DNA and related software (similar to EScribe) that gives more functionality, monitoring, analyzers, real time monitoring, customizable settings, and etc. please let me know.... I want to kick-the-tires on it....


Well, DNA is definitely the leader in all of the above. By the way, RT monitoring (which many consider to be a gimmick) just helped me tune a Kayfun in no time at all. Great feature!

I'm just not a big fan of the Escribe's UI. It's… archaic, almost as if it was designed for a CNC machine or some military appliance. 

There's an easy way for Evolv to assure their eternal domination of the high end market. Make the next DNA chip with a built-in Bluetooth (we already have battery chargers with BT, so why not?) and… make the API open source, so any developer could not just use it, but build it on any platform. Just imagine an Escribe-like app on your smartphone, or the real time monitoring on a smartwatch. Or a BT-enabled charger telling your mod that the next batch of batteries is ready to be loaded… [love]

Quote:
Originally Posted by retird
Oh, and welcome to the forum.... (just noticed your registration date).. [comp]


Thanks! [wave]
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