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Margucci

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Reply with quote  #46 
with the power vs temp issue all it takes is some common sense to give you the only correct information:
- preheat phase: the higher the wattage and harder the initial punch as well as vapor production. with a quick ramp up time you will get your initial vapor warmer faster. however, the higher this preheat power is set the shorter this phase is because the coil will reach its intended temperature sooner. this very short phase the power you set rules. 
- vaping phase: after the 0.5-1s preheat phase while your coil gets up to temperature this is obviously dictated by the temperature you set. when the coil approaches and finally reaches the set temperature the power is drastically reduced because it isnt needed in the slightest. it doesnt matter how much higher you set your power there will be no change at all in your vape experience (either vapor production of flavor). 

therefore if you want to be pedantic, you can say that both power and temperature are factors. and while that is technically true the reality says otherwise. if your pull is 4s long you would be lucky if 15-20% of your total vape time is influenced by the wattage set at all. the temperature you have set overwhelmingly dictates the quality of the vape. these are not opinions, they are facts. this is confirmed each and every time you look at the device monitor in escribe. 

HOWEVER, there is one pseudo situation this is not the case. in the event that both your preheat phase and vaping phase power are set at the perfect values so that the coil never quite reaches the set temperature than the vape is completely dictated by power. the reason why i call this is pseudo situation is because you are not actually using temperature control at all. through sheer dumb luck or a lot of trial and error you have set your power settings to the exact values so that you create an equilibrium point when the power going into the coil is being fully balanced by the cooling of the juice in the wick as well as the airflow passing by it. this situation is extremely precarious and even small changes in wick saturation, ambient temperature, length of vape, and even suction would upset this equilibrium. essentially in this situation you are self temperature controlling. the end result would be a much slower ramp up time than you would experience if you allowed the mod to temp control. in addition, the equilibrium vape would be nowhere near as consistent. 
Dejay

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Reply with quote  #47 
Leswiss I think the idea of "Temperature = Flavor" and "Wattage = Vapor" is NOT that more is more - but that you control flavour with temperature while you control vapor with wattage. I think the analogy is a bit too simple though. And it happened to be John from evolv who used that analogy ^^ in an early DNA 40 PBusardo interview / video [smile] 

But the two graphs that VapingBad posted show that it could well be a different experience. I think sensory experience is often tied to changes in stimuli a slowly increasing temperature might just feel more powerful to someone who is sensitive enough. So there is no "best practice" - whatever works for you [smile]

I could also imagine a "reactive temperature mode" similar to stoking a fire with increased air. Basically if you draw slowly the mod reaches temperature with few watts but if you draw harder you need more power but also the mod increases the temperature by a few degrees as well and gives even more power. Similar to how a cigarette glows more intensely when you draw harder on it. You could control it very easily and in an analog way by changing your draw. This is just a crazy idea of course!!! But it might just be a new interesting vaping experience!


BTW about your observation about SS temperature coefficient I noticed something similar. After measuring and setting my mod resistance I got ~88W sustained power at 440°F - now I'm getting much less - about 28W sustained @ 440°F! While having the same resistance. Could be lots of different things like maybe contact resistance or a fluke. Or I need to rewick. I use 316L stainless steel.
VapingBad

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Reply with quote  #48 
As I first posted I have no objection to this as an option, but a lot of posts make three large assumptions to support the conjecture that wattage control in temp limited operation is redundant:
1)  That everyone builds coils that do not have any head room, more contact area between the coil and wick will produce more vapour at a given temp and are an important part of the mix. If they cannot and not all atomisers have enough room to do this then you have to increase the temp to increase the vapour.  You can have a coil with more area and adjust the amount of vapour using wattage and staying below the temperature and this does not affect the perceived warmth of the vape that is more to do with density (latent energy).
2)  That everyone automatically sets the watts above what a they need so will always hit the temp limit.
3)  That everyone just wants to vape at an exact temp and just adjust that temp as opposed to vaping an amount of vapour up to a temp.

Also pre-heat is far less important when you just set the wattage high as you have already set it up to get to temp ASAP the pre-heat settings are now almost redundant operating like this.

As for "Temperature = Flavor" and "Wattage = Vapor" it is as relevant as it always was, you can max the watts on the DNA40 just like the 200 and IMO what influences the flavour most is the max temp the liquid is cooked at in the wick before it vaporises.  We all see the colour change in the liquid from the chemical reactions taking place triggered by temperature and that will affect the flavour. The mechanism for the temperature limiting is changing the watts, so the adjustment of watts dose have an effect, but on it's own it cannot adjust flavour. So IMO anyway "Temperature = Flavor" and "Wattage = Vapor" is a good analogy, although limited because it leaves out other important factors like contact area between wick and coil (how well the heat is spread out) and airflow.  And is why I don't like to adjust the flavour setting once I have found the sweet spot for the liquid YMMV.

The DNA200 datasheet says:
Quote:
Because wattage, not temperature controls vapor volume, large vapor volumes can be produced without unnecessarily high temperatures. Temperature Protection is most helpful if the atomizer begins to dry out, the user pauses during a puff, the beginning or end of the puff, or if the wattage setting is in appropriate for the attached atomizer.


Each to their own and they are just 2 ways of doing the same thing at the end of the day, both make sense and both work.  I hope Evolv do implement this as an option soon as it is getting boring.

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• I am not employed by nor do I represent Evolv Inc.  All opinions are my own, they are just opinion not fact and can be wrong •

Latest versions of EScribe: DNA 200/250DNA 75
Common problems
Mad Scientist

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Reply with quote  #49 
I have a new mantra. Increasing applied power increases temperature; increasing temp setting increases applied power lol.

I think it's silly that an unfortunate comment in a pbusardo interview has "evolved" into a religious doctrine. [wink]

That said, having used a mod that had only a temp setting without being able to limit power, I don't like that method. Temp control is generally very accurate but the technology is still far from perfect. We definitely need the ability to set limits on both temp and power. The only issue is some prefer to adjust one more frequently than the other. The present UI state machine does not take that difference in preference into account. It will likely be a pain but evolv needs to change the UI state machine to be table driven and allow us as users to modify the table, or at least allow us to modify some entries in it.
VapingBad

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Reply with quote  #50 
TBH I think it started from people using mods without pre-heat to speed up heating time, a bit like the "thou shalt use res lock" mantra they were originally ways of getting around the short comings of other devices.  Again nothing wrong if that's how you like to do it.
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• I am not employed by nor do I represent Evolv Inc.  All opinions are my own, they are just opinion not fact and can be wrong •

Latest versions of EScribe: DNA 200/250DNA 75
Common problems
leddhedd

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Reply with quote  #51 

i would like to hear from evolv at this point so we can know if this is going to be implemented or not, i personally prefer to adjust temperature, as i see it as the difference between an auto and a manual car, sure you can make it work either way as it is, but i prefer to fine tune temperature of the vape to get the flavour i want, and let my max wattage maximize the vapor production without dry hitting.

some of the preference may also come from what devices people have used, those that use the joyetech evic will be familiar with temp adjust, whilst YiHi or IPV/Sigelei users will be more familiar with "temp limiting" rather than control

mactavish

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Posts: 127
Reply with quote  #52 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margucci
with the power vs temp issue all it takes is some common sense to give you the only correct information:
- preheat phase: the higher the wattage and harder the initial punch as well as vapor production. with a quick ramp up time you will get your initial vapor warmer faster. however, the higher this preheat power is set the shorter this phase is because the coil will reach its intended temperature sooner. this very short phase the power you set rules. 
- vaping phase: after the 0.5-1s preheat phase while your coil gets up to temperature this is obviously dictated by the temperature you set. when the coil approaches and finally reaches the set temperature the power is drastically reduced because it isnt needed in the slightest. it doesnt matter how much higher you set your power there will be no change at all in your vape experience (either vapor production of flavor). 

therefore if you want to be pedantic, you can say that both power and temperature are factors. and while that is technically true the reality says otherwise. if your pull is 4s long you would be lucky if 15-20% of your total vape time is influenced by the wattage set at all. the temperature you have set overwhelmingly dictates the quality of the vape. these are not opinions, they are facts. this is confirmed each and every time you look at the device monitor in escribe. 

HOWEVER, there is one pseudo situation this is not the case. in the event that both your preheat phase and vaping phase power are set at the perfect values so that the coil never quite reaches the set temperature than the vape is completely dictated by power. the reason why i call this is pseudo situation is because you are not actually using temperature control at all. through sheer dumb luck or a lot of trial and error you have set your power settings to the exact values so that you create an equilibrium point when the power going into the coil is being fully balanced by the cooling of the juice in the wick as well as the airflow passing by it. this situation is extremely precarious and even small changes in wick saturation, ambient temperature, length of vape, and even suction would upset this equilibrium. essentially in this situation you are self temperature controlling. the end result would be a much slower ramp up time than you would experience if you allowed the mod to temp control. in addition, the equilibrium vape would be nowhere near as consistent. 


Thanks for your post, it's the best explanation regarding my experiences so far with my first DNA device, the LavaBox DNA200. I have written and asked for opinions on this topic, and while I always appreciate feedback, I don't believe it's my high VG juice or my standard type build of 6 wrap, 3mm, .33ohm titanium build on a Subtank Mini RBA. Vaping at 480 F, I get to temp quickly, and get the TP message.

I tried rewicking using less cotton, same results. Wattage is NOT effecting my vapor production. If I go done to 15 watts, I don't get the TP warning/confirmation message, at 16, I do. Going up in wattage, even as far as 50 watts, gives me the exact same vape.

Again, I'm not writing this as a problem, just trying to understand why many seem to be able to control their vape using wattage, when I'm finding temperature is really the main control I seem to have. I see the same results using a different tank, the MORPH, using the titanium Delta 2 LVC .5 ohm coils. My TCR profile is from steam engine and working fine.

If someone with a large swing of wattage adjustment can post their build, and details, I would give it a try.
Jalcide

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Reply with quote  #53 
+1 on the wattage / temp swap on main screen option (again, option). This makes so much sense.
vrsnake

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Posts: 4
Reply with quote  #54 
I also would like an optional power/temp swap. Before my eFusion I had an eVic-VTC, and it's best feature was instant changing of the temp without going into menus or hitting a sequence of buttons.  I found myself changing the temp constantly based on what juice I was dripping, and my current mood.
Darthtanien

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Reply with quote  #55 
+1 for the OPTION to set temp or watt on the main screen in (temp mode) PLEASE.
Mdelaere

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Reply with quote  #56 

Totally agree, I'd like this option as well.

 

I also never understood the fact that temp=flavor and wattage=vapor.
AFAIK, temp is a limit, power is how fast you reach that limit. If you have your wattage set to 50W and the coil reaches like 200°C in no time at all, you won't get more vapor if you set it to 100W. I keep my wattage set to a point where it heats up the coil quickly, but not instantly. I prefer switching the temperature on the fly, not the wattage.
Maybe this could be an option depending on your profile. I'd rather see an option to have various default screen displays which you can link to a profile. Some info I have when using TC is useless when using kanthal, the other way round is true as well. I need to read my temp when in TC (preferably switch it on the fly), but that field becomes useless if I switch to a kanthal profile.

Dampmaskin

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Reply with quote  #57 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Scientist
I have a new mantra. Increasing applied power increases temperature; increasing temp setting increases applied power lol. I think it's silly that an unfortunate comment in a pbusardo interview has "evolved" into a religious doctrine. [wink] 


I fully agree.

Also, because I adjust the temperature more often than I adjust the power, +1 to the option of switching them around in the interface.

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BigLarry

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Reply with quote  #58 
On every temp control mod I have when I'm using a Nickel or Titanium coil I adjust temperature OFTEN. I RARELY adjust watts (as in maybe once during the entire life of the coil.)

+1 million to the Original Poster

I agree they should be swapped or at least the option should be present (to keep those who like it as is happy.)

It's the only real issue I have with the board.

As for the argument of adjusting watts instead/headroom on builds/etc I will say I have a collection of temp control mods & adjusting temp works way better in real life action for me.
Maybe it doesnt for you & that's okay.
But no chart, metric, or graph you can show will change that adjusting temp & leaving watts alone works for me.

LET US SWAP THEM!!!
Margucci

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Posts: 117
Reply with quote  #59 
Please give us the option to select the temperature as the main field on the screen on a per profile basis. If the option is selected then the current field for temperature (if its displayed at all) becomes the power. Crossing my fingers this is in the next escribe and firmware update.

Don't do it for us. Do it for Mr. Pbusardo. He deserves after making those videos!
TwistedVegan

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Reply with quote  #60 
Does anyone know if this is going to be implemented at all?

At the moment my dna200 devices are becoming redundant because the rx200 feels more like a proper temp control device.

It feels like the dna200 has temp control as a side feature rather than being a proper temp control device..
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