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VapingBad

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Reply with quote  #91 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartalec1020

I thought I would give some information on temperature control so that people understand the logic behind both "camps". There are two different ideas of how to use temperature control. They really are completely different.

Before we talk about the "camps", I want to explain a couple things. Voltage and wattage are not directly related to vapor. Vapor is produced by heat which is measured using Celsius or Fahrenheit. You might think you like to vape at 50W or 5V but the truth is you don't, you like to vape at the temperature curve (curve because the temperature is not constant) that 50W or 5V produces with your setup. That might make some people mad, but please understand if I heated the juice up using some magical power and made the temperature curve exactly the same as your device does at your setting, you would not notice a difference, I promise.

Now, here is a breakdown of each "camp".

Temperature Control: The idea here is simple: I like to vape at x temperature. I want my coil to be at exactly that temperature my entire vape. I want it to get there as quickly as possible and I want it to stay there no matter how long my hit is. A 1 second hit will behave the same as a 10 second hit (excluding the very beginning where is takes a short period of time to reach temperature). With this attitude, wattage/voltage is irrelevant to the user. The wattage/voltage should be set to the highest possible for the device (DNA 200 is 200W). Your preheat setting is irrelevant because you have the device set to it's maximum wattage/voltage. This is how devices that only allow you to set temperature work (i.e. the iStick 40W). The device applies as much power as it needs to get the coil to your temperature as quickly as possible. With this "camp" of vaping, having the wattage on the screen at all is useless (unless you want to see the live wattage as you take a hit). If you want less vapor you lower the temperature; if you want more vapor you raise the temperature.

Temperature Limiting: The idea here is not quite as simple: I like to vape with a temperature curve, not a constant temperature. This is more similar to kanthal or no temperature vaping. A 1 second hit will behave very differently than a 10 second hit. Here you are primarily adjusting in wattage/voltage. This allows you to define the temperature curve: lower wattage = smaller slope, higher wattage = greater slope, just like kanthal vaping. Temperature is used as a limit. Without it the coil would continue to heat up eventually resulting in burning. On short hits you might not ever hit your temperature setting. The temperature setting is for longer hits or empty tanks (longer is subjective, you might hit your temperature limit on every hit). If you want less vapor you lower the wattage/voltage; if you want more vapor you raise the wattage/voltage. This increases or decreases, respectively, the time it takes for the coil to heat which results in different amount of vapor. Remember, you are changing the wattage/voltage to change the temperature, not because wattage/voltage actually change the vape by themselves.

Clearly for the people in the "temperature control camp", having temperature as the main control setting on the DNA 200 is quite important. Those in the "temperature limiting camp" might want wattage to be the main control setting. For this reason, I think it should be added as an option. Realistically, it only needs to be changed using Escribe as *most* users will have a preference and not need to change on the go. Obviously it is nice to be able to change settings directly on the device, but I think other features are more important.

I did my best to be as factual as possible. Please don't get mad if you disagree. We all have different vaping styles and no one style is better than any other, but at the end of the day, the temperature of the juice is all that matters.


I largely agree, but would add that in what is being called wattage camp the heat up curve is often faster, especially compared to devices with out preheat and can be used to have a forward loaded vape if that's your thing.  Just increasing the temp past the boiling point will not continue to increase the vapour in the same way.  I am vary far from an expert on this, or anything vaping, but IIRC the liquid in contact with the coil will become a layer super heated steam which will heat the liquid that creates the vapour.

As you and many people in this thread have said both methods can give you a great vape and neither is wrong, it is just about choice.  But they are not the only controls you have EG if you want more vapour you can also increase airflow or contact area between the coil and wick, if you want faster heat up & cool down you can use thinner wicks and thinner wire.   This is a great tool, but you still need to match your atty and build to your vaping style.


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Latest versions of EScribe: DNA 200/250DNA 75
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VapingBad

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Reply with quote  #92 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc601
Repeat  previously posted " Just make it an option".  I don't need it but others want it. Preface that sometimes something seems simple to implement but in reality it may require a lot more. [thumb]

Yep, that sentiment goes all the way through this thread I don't think that anyone has been against having both methods as options in this thread.

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Latest versions of EScribe: DNA 200/250DNA 75
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Margucci

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Reply with quote  #93 
just to repeat for people too lazy to read...

WE WANT IT AS AN OPTION! YOU CAN CHOOSE WHICH IS SHOWN
smartalec1020

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Reply with quote  #94 
Quote:
Just increasing the temp past the boiling point will not continue to increase the vapour in the same way.


Accurate with one slight caveat (of virtually no importance but useful for understanding). Generally increasing the temperature will make the device apply more power at the beginning. The DNA 200 attempts to get the coil to your set temperature but not over (at least not much over) as quickly as possible. If you have the temperature set to 500F it will take x time to get to 500F. If you increase the temperature to 550F, it will *generally* take less than x time to get to 500F. This is because it does not begin to ramp back the power until later. This is being nitpicky, I know, but I think it helps with understanding how the device is working.

Quote:
I largely agree, but would add that in what is being called wattage camp the heat up curve is often faster, especially compared to devices with out preheat and can be used to have a forward loaded vape if that's your thing.


The reason stated above is why the "temperature limiting camp" or "wattage camp" can get to a given temperature faster that the "temperature control camp". The DNA 200 will back off in power as it reaches the temperature to prevent from going over.

Quote:

As you and many people in this thread have said both methods can give you a great vape and neither is wrong, it is just about choice.  But they are not the only controls you have EG if you want more vapour you can also increase airflow or contact area between the coil and wick, if you want faster heat up & cool down you can use thinner wicks and thinner wire.   This is a great tool, but you still need to match your atty and build to your vaping style.


I completely aggree. I personally vape with a DNA 200 and TFV4 with prebuilt nickel coils. I have the coil airflow wide open, and the slipstream airflow completely closed. I set my DNA 200 to 200W. Depending on the juice I set the temperature between 440F and 480F. I have a profile for 440F, one for 460F, and one for 480F. All other setting are the same on the profiles. Depending on the juice, I switch profiles. For me this setup works well because it is easy and the vape is exactly the same every time I pick the device up and no matter how long my hit is. This is why I love my DNA 200, accuracy is vital for consistency.

The main reason I want this feature is actually so I can have another metric on the display, I don't care about wattage but I want to see other stuff. This feature will allow me to remove wattage to add something else to the display.
smartalec1020

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Reply with quote  #95 
Quote:
just to repeat for people too lazy to read...

WE WANT IT AS AN OPTION! YOU CAN CHOOSE WHICH IS SHOWN


We also want it to tell us the winning numbers for the powerball. Can you implement that feature within the next few hours??
lordmage

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Reply with quote  #96 
being relatively new to the tc/tl game. i have come to the choice of asking for the option to be added as well. just like we can swap the buttons display and such why not have an option to switch the temp and wattage both on the display and how it would function. ie (5 clicks, hold up/down to get to Temp) as it is default ATM. swap the two then instead of temp it could be wattage. i have tanks that like a certain temp i change that more then i would wattage, when using the best TC curve for it.

Example when in wattage mode the device turns TC off, and so naturally i would want Wattage to be what was adjusted with the up and down.

when i am using a Tank that i like at 35 watts but change the temp thru the day i would naturally like to have the temp be what is changed by the up and down 
letsavit

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Reply with quote  #97 
Hey guys calm down and give evolv a chance to work out what they invented......... Temp control....lol...

Off now for a while, just popped in to get the efusion files, thanks.....!
mrz

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Reply with quote  #98 
I have a great idea!
Will it be possible to have temperature setting in the main screen instead of wattage ?
Just kidin [tongue]
+1 from my side too for this request and James is testing it atm so i am sure we will see it soon...ish if all goes well.
Great work dear Evolv team!
BillW50

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Reply with quote  #99 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepetro
Temp Dominant changes the control action (Display and the +/- buttons) to adjust temp by default instead of watts.


I am so glad Evolv added this option. So many love the DNA, but that was one thing that was pretty annoying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepetro
I find it rather handy as I always leave my Mods on 200w and then let temp control it. So in day to day use, I just adjust temp.


Umm... do you really need it there? I am just thinking of cons. And I know for me, it doesn't need to be that high for the same performance. What should work is to keep dropping the wattage until you find the wattage where you noticed a change in vape. Then bump it up some.

CONS:

1) Harder on the battery for no gain.

2) Harder on the DNA200 (but we know the DNA is tough stuff) [biggrin]

3) It probably shortens coil(s) life.

I remember one video that Phil Busardo made and he tried testing if the DNA will pop up with a short error. But the DNA kept firing everything he tried. He even tried sticking a screwdriver inside of the 510 connector and it still fired and the screwdriver started to smoke.

Now lets say everything is working just fine with wattage set at 200 watts. Now let's say that 510 insulator melts, cracks, or something. Now you have a short and pushing 200 watts and TC will never kick in. Sure the batteries probably will be ok and the DNA200 will probably be able to handle it. But that's probably. There is always what if?

mikepetro

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Reply with quote  #100 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillW50

Umm... do you really need it there? I am just thinking of cons. And I know for me, it doesn't need to be that high for the same performance. What should work is to keep dropping the wattage until you find the wattage where you noticed a change in vape. Then bump it up some.

CONS:

1) Harder on the battery for no gain.

2) Harder on the DNA200 (but we know the DNA is tough stuff) [biggrin]

3) It probably shortens coil(s) life.


Need? - No, but it sure is convenient for the way I vape and attys I use.

IMHO, and in actual observation in Device Monitor, none of these 3 points are valid. Why? Because the mod never goes above 75w (or so) anyway. I am vaping on dual TI coils that average around 0.14 to 0.15 ohms at 480f. What I typically see in Device Monitor is a brief jump to 75ish watts during pre-heat (for a second or less) and then 480f is reached and temp limiting kicks in and throttles the watts down to 35w or less.

So it is no harder on the battery, board, or coil than if I set the max watts at 90w. It is just more convenient as I never even have to even think about watts when I change attys or whatever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BillW50

Now lets say everything is working just fine with wattage set at 200 watts. Now let's say that 510 insulator melts, cracks, or something. Now you have a short and pushing 200 watts and TC will never kick in. Sure the batteries probably will be ok and the DNA200 will probably be able to handle it. But that's probably. There is always what if?


This is a valid point in theory, but only in the event of a catastrophic failure. Ever since the 200 came out, I have never heard of even one such catastrophic failure where this was a danger. Sure, there have been failures, but the fuse has limited the potential danger in all cases I have heard of. If I am not mistaken there are actually 5 levels of safety engineered into the board, between that and the board's reputation, I personally am not concerned enough about it to change my 200w max.
BillW50

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Reply with quote  #101 
You raise some good points Mike. And while the Device Monitor is super cool and all. But I don't know if it could detect a spike say a thousandth of a second. I am guessing just by observing it that it might not pick up any faster than say a tenth of a second. It is hard to judge from the computer monitor how fast it is capable of. It might just boil down to the abilities of your computer (or the speed of the USB port, whichever is the bottleneck).

I have four oscilloscopes and I should do some testing when I have some time to kill. As it would be interesting even for a very brief instant in time if it does slam the coil at 200 watts.
mikepetro

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Reply with quote  #102 
I think, with regard to catastrophic failure, it all comes down to - how fast does that fuse blow.

Been vaping on the DNA200 since about August/September of last year, have built dozens of mods, have a half dozen in my own stable, have never seen nor heard of a reason to be concerned about a blow-out yet.

But then - to each their own vape.........
Dejay

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Reply with quote  #103 
Quote:
(4) profiles now have a "Temperature Dominant" option, making temperature the main adjustment for a profile if you want to do so


Holy hell - I totally missed that update for like 3 months!!! 

I really like this feature.

Many thanks to evolv for adding it [smile]


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